127: False Redemption: It's Not A Marriage Issue Guest- Melissa J. Hogan

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Welcome to episode 127 of the Untangled Faith podcast. Here's

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a situation you've probably observed a million times. You hear that

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someone you know or someone you admire as an author or speaker or leader

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is in a marriage where there has been a serious breakdown of trust. Maybe it's

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infidelity, maybe it's abuse outside of the marriage.

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Maybe the person you know is the offended party, or maybe they are the

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offender. What should happen next? I bet you've seen situations where there

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is a strong encouragement to restore the marriage and use it as an

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example of a redemption story. There are a lot of different ways

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something like this plays out, but that's the basic model. Today I'm joined

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by attorney and Institutional Response specialist for Grace,

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Melissa J. Hogan, and we're going to talk about some things communities

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and leaders and friends should know about situations like this and

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why our first inclination as believers whose desire to protect

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marriage is likely unhelpful and possibly harmful.

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I'm glad you're here for this important conversation.

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I'm Amy Fritz and you're listening to the Untangled Faith

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Podcast, a podcast for anyone who has found themselves

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confused or disillusioned in their faith journey. If you want to hold on to

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your faith while untangling it from all that is not good or true, this

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is the place for you. Just a note before we

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get going that this conversation mentions abuse. Please take

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care when listening. Here's my conversation with Melissa J. Hogan. So

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I framed this as what do you do when your

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spouse the person you promise to love

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and cherish forever, the person you committed

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to under God? And an inherent in that is

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the desire to support them and protect them and cover their faults and

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believe them, give them the benefit of the doubt. What do you do

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when someone accuses them of harm?

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Or what happens when you suspect them of

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harm to you or to other people? And it's

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just almost an impossible situation? Yeah, I

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love that framing. I had been thinking about this

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conversation for a little while and so I was really glad to get it on

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the calendar and also glad to have you come, Melissa, because

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I felt like you have seen this from

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a lot of different angles and so you can wear several hats in this

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conversation. So, Melissa J. Hogan, welcome to the podcast. I'm glad

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you're here. It's good to be back.

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Should we start with a scenario kind of like what you just

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framed that we've seen? Very often a wife

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somehow or another finds out that her husband has

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betrayed her one way or another, either

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cheated on her or has done something else that the world

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is aware of, her community is becoming aware of.

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And then what. What does the church in

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so many times, so many times say,

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let us figure out how to restore this marriage so that everybody's back together

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and moving along as fast as possible. And then

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it becomes a big testimony. I would actually

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reverse that because I think that is how

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the church and the Christian community often

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frames it as the husband betrayed the

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wife. Yes. But really how I see these

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situations now is that the. One of the

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partners, in my case the man, and often in the

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situations we're talking about, the man has harmed

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people. Yeah. So when we look at it in the sense of

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he's betrayed his spouse, it. It frames it as a

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marriage challenge,

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whether a severe or light, you know, but it frames it

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as a marriage challenge instead of. This is a him issue.

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Yeah. And so much of the damage to,

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to women or spouses in a marriage have been when

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something is taken from it is that person's

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character and behavior and pattern of

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behavior issue, and turning that somehow into. Well, it's a

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marriage dynamic that's happening here. Yes. And

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also this unfair idea,

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also that. And maybe this is another burden thing

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that is unnecessary and, and unhealthy is

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that as long as you're okay with whatever's you

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decided you're okay, it must be. I'm sure everybody else is fine

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too. Like, like, I'm sure it's good. And it might be bigger,

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you know, and that's really hard. It wouldn't be

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the, you know, offended

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spouse's shame on them to carry that.

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But many times I've seen the church say, well,

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Melissa's okay, so the rest of us should be fine.

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We should. It's much easier to do that when the,

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the harm is. Is to the spouse or, and, or the

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children. So it's much easier to frame it that way in a case of

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domestic abuse or alleged domestic abuse, because then, well,

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they could be okay with it. Well, in actuality, there,

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there are reasons that we have laws against abuse and child abuse

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because that is a harm to the whole society. It is also a

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harm to those people that they may be so trained in

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it, they may not be able to, to understand what's happened to them or to

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protect themselves or to protect their children. And so it is

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incumbent upon other people to step in,

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whether or not the woman or the spouse or the children think

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they're okay because it is a

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collective harm and because it's a pattern of behavior. When

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we realize that abuse, whether that is sexual

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abuse to someone outside of a marriage or domestic

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abuse within the marriage, that person that is

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abusing has an abusive mindset. And

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when we realize that, then we realize that they're not

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just harming the person that is the

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named victim. Yeah, that mindset plays out in

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all of their relationships in some way. It

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plays out to people maybe they're not harming because they're grooming them or they

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don't need them for something, but it plays out if, even if they're

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abusing someone outside of their marriage, let's

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say that they're. They've sexually abused someone of

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equal age or that's under their authority, or they've sexually

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abused children, minors. People can

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say, oh, well, that victim, that's the victim.

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But really, there's many different types

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of victims in that. Because when you say that, I think of an example that

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is pretty well known, or no, people aren't talking about it these

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days, probably. But I think about Bill Hybels and his assistant

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coming forward and speaking for an article with the New York Times

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about how he basically assaulted her. Yeah, I mean,

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there, there are probably other victims in the same vein

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of the primary abuse that we don't know about because it's a

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pattern. But then there's also these other primary victims

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and secondary victims. Let's take this scenario that we have

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a. A man in a marriage who has sexually abused one or more

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people outside the marriage under their authority. And because that person

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has an abusive mindset in that marriage, that

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the spouse, the woman, has also been groomed in

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certain ways to believe them, they've been deceived,

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because that person starts by deceiving themselves. The deceit starts

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there first. The abuser deceived themselves about

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their behavior, about their need to

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minimize it, to deceive other people in order to achieve it. So they're

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deceiving themselves, and then they're deceiving everybody else in their life. And

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so that the spouse, the woman in that

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situation is also very harmed because the psychological

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damage from having to reframe your entire

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relationship with this person and your entire life. Also, the person

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has likely used other deceitful strategies like gaslighting.

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So you may question your reality. They might intimidate you

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or create unhealthy framework so that you

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don't become suspicious of their behavior or you don't look at their stuff. So you

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have learned these unhealthy patterns that maybe you also knew them

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from childhood as well, and they don't seem abnormal. But then

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also the children in that family

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have taken in that type of behavior as

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normal. So even so, somebody could say, well, those children aren't

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seeing him sexually abuse someone. They're, they're not witnesses to

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this. And they try to separate out that person's

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abusive mindset that exists when they're

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abusing and when they're covering up their abuse and say that

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doesn't affect how they treat their spouse or their children

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or other people. And it absolutely does.

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Children have taken in these very subtle

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subconscious behaviors that play out in their relationship

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and they're either going to think these certain types of behaviors are

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normal, like deceit, the nervousness of when you

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kind of COVID up something or you're not telling the truth, or the distance between

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their parents. They're taking that as normal and they're going to

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carry that through their life or they're going to learn these other

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subtle, abusive, controlling

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dynamics and then they're going to learn that that is

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normal. So they might be

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victimized in the future. They might learn that

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controlling people is how you get what you want and what you need and then

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to justify that or how do you confuse someone that's

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suspicious of you? So absolutely,

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this mindset and these behaviors play out in the

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relationship with the non primary

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victims if that abuser is abusing outside of the marriage. Now if he's

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abusing within the marriage, the, the wife and children, obviously

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it's there and it's, it's terrible. Yeah, we just

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jumped right in to the deep end with this. But I think it's

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important to have this frame

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of mind that says this bigger than

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a one time thing that we know happened.

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Generally when we hear of accounts like this, we

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hear that this person was discovered

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because of something they did. And it's one thing, and we

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don't put it into context of their life that what would happen to

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make somebody willing to do that? One thing

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that we know it generally is part of a pattern of

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behavior that is bigger. But I would love to

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have you speak to the idea that sometimes an

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outsider would say that spouse must have

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known that person was a creep and a terrible person.

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Why didn't they stop them?

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Wow, that, that's a heavy question. And the

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reality is there's several reasons why you

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wouldn't consciously know. Yeah. And

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the first is our training and what, what is normal for

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us. So a spouse may have normalized from

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their childhood into adulthood. Whatever. These types of behaviors

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are not necessarily the abusive behaviors,

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but the ways that it's covered up and the ways that it's

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ignored, the ways that their partner deceives them or

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gaslights them, that may seem normal, that existed for me,

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like I. The patterns

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of deceit and even the patterns of

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serial adultery. That was from my

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family. And I learned that you

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forgive and you work and restore

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and forgive means you forget and you know all of these

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things. So you don't often see it as a

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pattern either if we don't learn that abuse is a

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mindset and that these things are unhealthy.

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Also, our training in the faith, in the church, it's

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both. There's the training as the wife that your role

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is to believe them, you know, to, you know,

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discount bad things that people say about them. I listened to your most recent

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podcast, and she said, you know, as a wife, you are

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trained to be super positive about your spouse. And you. You are his PR

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agent. Yes, you were. I. I

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literally used to say, oh, I'm your biggest note for the audio, because I

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want. Raising her hand. Melissa's raising her hand. Yeah.

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I wanted my spouse

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to be the best he could be and

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succeed and be proud of himself and

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fulfill his potential. Not for glory for me, but because I

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believed in him and loved him and wanted that for

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him, like you would want it for people you care about. So there's this

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training in the church and

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historically as wives to. To do

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that. And so we. We dismiss

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what seem like minor things and we downplay

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allegations, because also this person is all the

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time reinforcing that this is

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our marriage and that they love us. Even in, like, a cycle of domestic abuse

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in the marriage. We've talked about this. It. Abusers don't

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abuse all the time. So there is this intermittent

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reinforcement that happens and that keeps you in

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this dynamic because you are getting sometimes this

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love and attention that you. You crave

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from this person. And then other times, they're a

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complete aggressive bully. And so

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similarly, in. Even if they're abusing someone outside the marriage,

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you are getting this intermittent reinforcement that they're this wonderful

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person that you think they are, and sometimes

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they're really, really good at it, and you're only seeing the mask

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slip every so often. And it's very easy to attribute that to

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the exception and that the rule is that they are this wonderful

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person that you should believe and forgive

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them for every small slight. And we're also

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trained as women to make our husband the

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hero. So then if something happens outside the marriage, whether

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it's abuse or an affair, we want to blame

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the other woman. Right. I Mean even in clergy sexual

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abuse for decades and even now in

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some cases it's framed by the pastor who has,

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has done this. I can think of a certain pastor down in Florida who

246
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committed clergy sexual abuse and it's an affair. It's. I'm air

247
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quoting it's an affair as opposed to. No.

248
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He used his power to manipulate someone into a sexual relationships. So

249
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as wives, we want to buy that. We want to believe them and blame the

250
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other woman. She tempted them. You know, it was a time of weakness

251
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and then betrayal, blindness. You know, Jennifer

252
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frayed her work in that area. The cost

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to seeing that they're doing these behaviors or they're

254
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harming someone or that they're deceiving us or that they're bullying us. The

255
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cost to that would mean we would have to do something.

256
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Yeah. And especially if you are in a

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marriage where the church has said you, you can't get divorced

258
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unless you have some hard evidence, we will not support you getting divorced. Or in

259
00:15:58,106 --> 00:16:01,794
my case where I swore I would never get divorced because my parents,

260
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divorce was so damaging, there's no way

261
00:16:05,338 --> 00:16:08,706
out. So your brain tricks

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you and hides this stuff from you into your

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subconscious. Jennifer Frayed calls it the whoosh in the intro to

264
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her book. And I just about fell over because I, I

265
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literally experienced it as a whoosh so many times and it was just

266
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gone. Her book Blind to Betrayal

267
00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:30,140
is so good. I will link that in the show notes. I haven't had the

268
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experience of domestic abuse, domestic violence, or somebody like

269
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really in my marriage situation or like in my

270
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family growing up. But the principles apply to

271
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any relationship or community that you're a part of, that you really value

272
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that. Your brain says if you see that it's going to cost you

273
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something that you don't want to pay. And I mean,

274
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that's not a shame on you that you didn't see it. Your,

275
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your actual brain's working against you. So I,

276
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I think that is a good thing to keep in mind when we think she

277
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must have known, he must have known.

278
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Why was she protecting him? I don't know that

279
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she did. No. No. And, and I mean, it's really

280
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interesting you point out the fact that the dynamics of

281
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abuse are the framework for

282
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that is really the same in all types of environments, whether it's

283
00:17:26,578 --> 00:17:30,178
domestic abuse, sexual abuse, institutional abuse. If you love

284
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your church or your ministry or your self

285
00:17:33,698 --> 00:17:37,506
described Christian workplace, you don't want to

286
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believe that these things are bad or these things are

287
00:17:41,346 --> 00:17:44,778
true. And so you, your brain

288
00:17:44,874 --> 00:17:48,714
doesn't Allow you to see it until the weight of evidence sitting on

289
00:17:48,722 --> 00:17:52,394
the shelf breaks the shelf. And all of a sudden

290
00:17:52,442 --> 00:17:55,946
it's. So many people have described this. It's like within

291
00:17:56,098 --> 00:17:59,914
a day or a couple things over a week, all of a

292
00:17:59,922 --> 00:18:03,226
sudden their eyes open, it's like the scales fall off and you're

293
00:18:03,258 --> 00:18:06,820
like, oh my gosh, this

294
00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:10,436
is, this is real. I have a question that I think

295
00:18:10,508 --> 00:18:13,780
is a really good one for you to, to

296
00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:17,604
field because of your, your own

297
00:18:17,692 --> 00:18:21,412
personal experience as well as your professional expertise and

298
00:18:21,436 --> 00:18:25,236
spending a lot of time researching in the

299
00:18:25,308 --> 00:18:29,156
field of abuse and learning about the dynamics of

300
00:18:29,228 --> 00:18:33,000
tricky, abusive people. I would think

301
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:36,684
this sort of thing happens in this pattern in these situations

302
00:18:36,732 --> 00:18:40,200
where the bad actor, someone finds out.

303
00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:43,884
It's undeniable at this point. And at that point

304
00:18:44,052 --> 00:18:47,260
a decision is made. And sometimes in our

305
00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:51,132
Christian bubbles, the decision is made by the

306
00:18:51,156 --> 00:18:55,000
bad actor that says, oh, I just figured out,

307
00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:59,422
I have this one problem. And they have a, they

308
00:18:59,446 --> 00:19:02,890
put a label on it really quickly and

309
00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:06,478
you know, whatever that might be. And now I've gone to,

310
00:19:06,534 --> 00:19:10,030
I've just went to therapy. We see so many times where people are sent off

311
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:13,610
to like an intensive thing and,

312
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:17,250
and I would imagine the spouse feels relief.

313
00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:22,350
That is what it was. That I have wondered somewhere in my

314
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:26,222
head something wasn't right. And I bet they even feel relief at

315
00:19:26,246 --> 00:19:29,882
that point of like, that's the answer. Yep.

316
00:19:29,946 --> 00:19:33,290
What I, you know, tell

317
00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:35,510
me about

318
00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:40,442
what kind of concerns we should have with that

319
00:19:40,546 --> 00:19:44,058
framing of like, now we know and we're good and we're

320
00:19:44,074 --> 00:19:47,786
going, we're moving forward. Right, right.

321
00:19:47,938 --> 00:19:51,658
I mean, I think as long as you frame it as

322
00:19:51,714 --> 00:19:54,220
something other than

323
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,392
an abusive mindset, you are in

324
00:19:59,416 --> 00:20:03,120
danger of minimizing what has happened, the risk

325
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,928
of what will happen in the future, and the

326
00:20:06,984 --> 00:20:10,272
remedy. Because if you say it's an

327
00:20:10,296 --> 00:20:13,856
affair, oh well, gosh, we got the Billy Graham rule

328
00:20:13,968 --> 00:20:17,260
and that's how we fix that. We don't let them be alone with women

329
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,350
or if it's that they touched a

330
00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:25,158
child sexually. Well, we don't want to let them be around children and

331
00:20:25,214 --> 00:20:28,726
they just need to, to realize and go to go to therapy.

332
00:20:28,918 --> 00:20:32,694
But when you realize that this comes. The Bible talks about

333
00:20:32,782 --> 00:20:36,550
everywhere our actions come out of our heart. Yes. And

334
00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:40,310
so this is a deep set heart problem

335
00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:44,182
when you abuse other people and use them for

336
00:20:44,206 --> 00:20:47,590
your own needs. So when we look at it that

337
00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:51,046
way, it becomes a little more obvious that this is a

338
00:20:51,198 --> 00:20:54,870
pattern of behavior with. There's probably a number of

339
00:20:54,910 --> 00:20:58,582
things that, and a number of other victims. There's things we don't know

340
00:20:58,606 --> 00:21:02,438
about, there's behaviors we don't know, and they're not telling us

341
00:21:02,494 --> 00:21:06,086
the truth. I can't tell you how many times. I

342
00:21:06,158 --> 00:21:09,910
personally or not the entire truth. Right. But, but

343
00:21:09,950 --> 00:21:13,690
especially that's a huge sign when you're having to pull

344
00:21:14,030 --> 00:21:17,270
information out and they're only admitting things you already know.

345
00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:21,122
Ye. But, but generally you are only finding out a little piece. I mean,

346
00:21:21,146 --> 00:21:24,850
I personally went through a number of

347
00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:28,610
experiences over the course of my 21 year

348
00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:32,418
marriage where I would find out one thing and okay, we'll

349
00:21:32,434 --> 00:21:36,226
admit that. Is there anything else? No, no,

350
00:21:36,298 --> 00:21:39,954
nothing else. And then I'd find out another piece and it would be like at

351
00:21:39,962 --> 00:21:43,778
the beginning, I probably knew 5% of the reality and,

352
00:21:43,834 --> 00:21:47,586
and even by the end of that episode or whatever, I still maybe, maybe

353
00:21:47,618 --> 00:21:51,454
knew 50% y. And over the course of my marriage, I

354
00:21:51,462 --> 00:21:55,246
think I probably know 10% of what is the truth. I've

355
00:21:55,278 --> 00:21:59,022
seen that in a lot of abusive situations where you're just

356
00:21:59,046 --> 00:22:02,862
told a little bit or they admit a little bit. And

357
00:22:02,886 --> 00:22:06,110
that's just a sign that this is not a person who is

358
00:22:06,150 --> 00:22:09,790
repenting or changing at all. But even if

359
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:13,406
they do, because it's a mindset, it will

360
00:22:13,478 --> 00:22:16,330
take a long time,

361
00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:20,458
as in years, decades to

362
00:22:20,514 --> 00:22:24,202
change. And you won't know along the

363
00:22:24,226 --> 00:22:28,010
course of that if it's actually real because you are

364
00:22:28,050 --> 00:22:31,562
undoing hard wiring in that brain that has

365
00:22:31,586 --> 00:22:35,306
existed for a long time. And it's not just like the actual

366
00:22:35,338 --> 00:22:38,634
acts of abuse. Again, it goes deeper into this self

367
00:22:38,682 --> 00:22:42,394
deception and deception of other people. It takes

368
00:22:42,442 --> 00:22:45,734
a lot to undo that. And that's what the person who wants

369
00:22:45,782 --> 00:22:49,370
to get better and often abusers,

370
00:22:49,950 --> 00:22:53,558
it takes a lot and years for them to even get to that place

371
00:22:53,614 --> 00:22:56,870
where they want to actually get better. Don't believe their

372
00:22:56,910 --> 00:23:00,290
words. Do not believe the words. Only believe

373
00:23:01,150 --> 00:23:04,790
actions that literally turn the other direction and

374
00:23:04,830 --> 00:23:08,486
run and them being a completely different

375
00:23:08,558 --> 00:23:12,408
person over years and decades is

376
00:23:12,464 --> 00:23:15,992
how you could say, oh, this person. But, but a weekend,

377
00:23:16,136 --> 00:23:19,512
A weekend at a retreat center or a week. A

378
00:23:19,536 --> 00:23:23,192
week. Yeah. I think we're both thinking of the same place.

379
00:23:23,296 --> 00:23:26,620
There's a specific retreat

380
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,360
place not that far from us where we've seen

381
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,024
a laundry list of men

382
00:23:34,112 --> 00:23:37,448
in the Christian realm who have had

383
00:23:37,504 --> 00:23:40,780
accusations of some kind of abusive behav.

384
00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:45,108
They go to this place and it's. I,

385
00:23:45,164 --> 00:23:48,580
I'm not saying there's not good work done there and that there's people

386
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:51,796
who have experienced trauma that are not served there but in those

387
00:23:51,868 --> 00:23:55,508
instances, it appears to be a way to

388
00:23:55,644 --> 00:23:59,092
massage the tarnished image of the

389
00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:02,932
male Christian leader. Because I'm going to

390
00:24:02,956 --> 00:24:06,788
this place and getting help. And in fact, I think we know of one person

391
00:24:06,844 --> 00:24:09,902
who actually went there and used it to find other way. Other victims.

392
00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:13,882
Yeah, people who had experienced trauma. You know,

393
00:24:13,906 --> 00:24:17,418
I'm thinking of somebody that had like been very public about how they had gone

394
00:24:17,434 --> 00:24:20,710
to this place several times. And

395
00:24:21,730 --> 00:24:25,482
after saying that on podcasts, you know, there was

396
00:24:25,506 --> 00:24:29,162
a big article that came out with victims came naming this

397
00:24:29,186 --> 00:24:32,874
person as being sexually abusive. This was after

398
00:24:32,962 --> 00:24:36,596
saying they had gone to this place several times. So

399
00:24:36,668 --> 00:24:40,212
anytime I hear about somebody, especially if it's a high

400
00:24:40,236 --> 00:24:43,940
profile person that has undeniable

401
00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:47,684
allegations against them of something that's really bad, I

402
00:24:47,772 --> 00:24:51,492
say to myself, I bet they're going to this place. And I bet I'll see

403
00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:55,092
them again in a month, month and a half,

404
00:24:55,196 --> 00:24:58,788
six months talking about how they went to this place.

405
00:24:58,844 --> 00:25:02,340
And my fear is they're just given a lot of really good

406
00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:06,110
words to explain away what they did. Not

407
00:25:06,150 --> 00:25:09,582
that some of those things aren't true that are explaining what happened inside of

408
00:25:09,606 --> 00:25:13,230
them, but I think sometimes is used as a bypass of

409
00:25:13,270 --> 00:25:16,250
doing deep, ongoing work. It's a start.

410
00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:20,334
But the real proof of transformation

411
00:25:20,462 --> 00:25:23,730
cannot be something that happens quickly.

412
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:26,730
As you were talking, Melissa, I was thinking about how

413
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:31,130
the burden might be more

414
00:25:31,170 --> 00:25:34,778
appropriately placed. And I don't know if this is the right word, but

415
00:25:34,834 --> 00:25:38,410
like I think the community surrounding the people that are

416
00:25:38,450 --> 00:25:41,818
harmed, especially family members who have been harmed by somebody that's

417
00:25:41,834 --> 00:25:45,402
made really terrible decisions, that the

418
00:25:45,426 --> 00:25:49,242
community around them, being aware of the dynamics of

419
00:25:49,266 --> 00:25:52,778
what it means to be an abusive person, the

420
00:25:52,834 --> 00:25:55,710
friends, the mentors

421
00:25:56,060 --> 00:25:59,588
and faith community leaders in their lives of

422
00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:03,396
how important that them

423
00:26:03,468 --> 00:26:06,964
understanding because they're not in the same crisis

424
00:26:07,012 --> 00:26:10,452
place and they don't have the same betrayal blindness going on for

425
00:26:10,476 --> 00:26:13,720
them that somebody that lives in a house with somebody

426
00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:18,388
might have. And so tell me a little bit about

427
00:26:18,524 --> 00:26:22,180
how, what you would say, how, how could

428
00:26:22,220 --> 00:26:25,968
I be a good friend to somebody who I know,

429
00:26:26,024 --> 00:26:29,872
whose marriage is in crisis? What

430
00:26:29,896 --> 00:26:33,408
are some good things or what are some things you would advise against? I gave

431
00:26:33,424 --> 00:26:37,140
this some thought. I gave this some thought about the stages

432
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,280
that at least I went through and other

433
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,800
people that have experienced similar situations go

434
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,320
through when you first learn of these

435
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:52,174
situations or you first open your eyes. And so

436
00:26:52,182 --> 00:26:55,130
I think understanding these kind of stages is also

437
00:26:55,590 --> 00:26:59,290
how people can come around that person and support them.

438
00:26:59,830 --> 00:27:03,166
And first is understanding that if they are still in close

439
00:27:03,238 --> 00:27:06,590
relationship with that person, they are going to

440
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:10,078
be constantly re traumatized,

441
00:27:10,254 --> 00:27:13,566
re deceived, re groomed

442
00:27:13,758 --> 00:27:16,450
about what is and isn't true.

443
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:20,452
And often it is in their best

444
00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:24,308
interest to separate them from that person.

445
00:27:24,444 --> 00:27:28,196
So that does not happen. Because it is really

446
00:27:28,268 --> 00:27:31,860
hard to get a handle on anything when you are in that

447
00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:35,000
constant cycle now, especially if it's domestic abuse,

448
00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:39,268
it's going to be even worse because that's

449
00:27:39,284 --> 00:27:43,012
what's been happening at a high level anyway. But

450
00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:46,380
if they've abused other people, that dynamic, like we said, is still

451
00:27:46,420 --> 00:27:50,204
there. So being in that situation, it's really hard to see

452
00:27:50,292 --> 00:27:54,060
what's happening. So talking through that and

453
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:57,852
helping them understand that and trying, even if they're going to stay in

454
00:27:57,876 --> 00:28:01,580
that, how do you support them with the

455
00:28:01,620 --> 00:28:05,260
understanding that that's going to happen? And then here, at

456
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:09,084
least for me and from what I've seen in others, are the

457
00:28:09,092 --> 00:28:12,600
stages you kind of go through. First you start to try to understand

458
00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:16,798
the dynamic you're in and then you start to try to figure

459
00:28:16,814 --> 00:28:20,590
out how do you care for yourself and then also if you

460
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:24,382
have children, how do you care for your children? If

461
00:28:24,406 --> 00:28:28,222
the person abused outside the marriage and then you're reaching the

462
00:28:28,246 --> 00:28:31,838
understanding of understanding the dynamic

463
00:28:31,934 --> 00:28:34,750
of their abuse if it's different than what

464
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:38,590
occurred with you. And then at some point in there

465
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:42,120
or overlaying all of this, you are dealing with possibly the

466
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,832
enablers of the abuser. So they

467
00:28:45,856 --> 00:28:49,560
may muck up this whole thing all along the way. But

468
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,936
you know, backing up, understand the dynamic, dynamic you're

469
00:28:52,968 --> 00:28:56,472
in is part of that realizing

470
00:28:56,616 --> 00:28:59,700
that this is a deceitful person

471
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,264
because again, you want to trust them, you want to believe them,

472
00:29:04,352 --> 00:29:07,912
this is your spouse. You are blind to their

473
00:29:07,936 --> 00:29:11,384
betrayal because of the cost. So maybe at this point as you're waking up,

474
00:29:11,552 --> 00:29:15,400
you're counting that cost. But reconciling the

475
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,000
fact that this person has been deceiving and they are

476
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,296
likely still deceiving you on an ongoing basis

477
00:29:22,488 --> 00:29:25,864
is part of understanding the dynamic you're in.

478
00:29:26,032 --> 00:29:29,848
And you know, we hear about wolves in the Bible. Yeah, we

479
00:29:29,904 --> 00:29:32,920
don't think it's going to happen to us. We don't think we're going to be

480
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,792
married to one. We, the church, I think also does a

481
00:29:36,816 --> 00:29:40,624
terrible job by acting like the wolves are out there. The wolves are

482
00:29:40,632 --> 00:29:44,432
the culture, the wolves are the leftists or whoever the wolves are in

483
00:29:44,456 --> 00:29:47,808
the church. That the Bible is very clear about

484
00:29:47,864 --> 00:29:51,328
that. And, and we also think, well, how did I miss it? It's

485
00:29:51,344 --> 00:29:54,752
easier to think I need to get back to work. I need, especially with the

486
00:29:54,776 --> 00:29:58,336
other pressures maybe that this person has brought to bear,

487
00:29:58,528 --> 00:30:02,224
it's easier to. To think I have all these other responsibilities, which you do,

488
00:30:02,312 --> 00:30:05,260
and I'm gonna kind of not deal with it

489
00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:09,542
and not appreciate the gravity or realize that they're

490
00:30:09,606 --> 00:30:13,446
deceiving everybody, including me and children and everyone,

491
00:30:13,598 --> 00:30:17,334
and just get back to work. So that's part of learning to understand the dynamic

492
00:30:17,382 --> 00:30:20,966
you're in. So helping someone to the extent that they're

493
00:30:20,998 --> 00:30:24,534
able and that they can tolerate it in their window

494
00:30:24,582 --> 00:30:27,570
of tolerance in the trauma that they're in.

495
00:30:28,110 --> 00:30:31,866
Now for a quick break. Now back to the show.

496
00:30:31,998 --> 00:30:35,746
And then it's also, how do you care for yourself? So obviously

497
00:30:35,778 --> 00:30:39,570
one of the first steps in therapy is

498
00:30:39,610 --> 00:30:42,670
to stabilize someone because often

499
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:47,390
as you're in that first stage of understanding the dynamic, the.

500
00:30:47,930 --> 00:30:51,630
The trauma is so intense because

501
00:30:52,170 --> 00:30:55,950
everything you knew about this person

502
00:30:56,890 --> 00:31:00,302
is now under question. You are

503
00:31:00,486 --> 00:31:04,110
reframing your entire relationship with them, your entire

504
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:07,598
dynamic. The grief there is

505
00:31:07,734 --> 00:31:11,422
so overwhelming because you're grieving

506
00:31:11,486 --> 00:31:15,118
the timeline of, you know, for me, it was timeline of 25

507
00:31:15,174 --> 00:31:18,750
years of this person. I knew that nothing was as I thought it

508
00:31:18,790 --> 00:31:21,998
was. You're grieving the future losses

509
00:31:22,174 --> 00:31:25,390
of what you thought you were going to grow old with this person. And now

510
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:28,978
what's this going to look like? You're grieving who this

511
00:31:29,034 --> 00:31:32,578
person is, not who they were,

512
00:31:32,634 --> 00:31:36,162
not who they won't be in the future. And then

513
00:31:36,266 --> 00:31:40,002
the harm to other people, to your children. Did

514
00:31:40,026 --> 00:31:43,602
you ignore red flags? You're wrestling with all of this stuff. There's a

515
00:31:43,626 --> 00:31:47,298
constant cycle as well, that you just wish, well,

516
00:31:47,354 --> 00:31:51,042
if. If this person would just wake up and realize what

517
00:31:51,066 --> 00:31:54,114
they did and the harm they caused other people and the harm they caused us,

518
00:31:54,202 --> 00:31:57,872
this would all go away. And it. That makes it even worse when you are

519
00:31:57,896 --> 00:32:01,504
around them and they're acting like they are doing that.

520
00:32:01,672 --> 00:32:05,488
Yeah. And so that gets confusing. So

521
00:32:05,624 --> 00:32:09,344
that's also. In caring for yourself, you're wrestling

522
00:32:09,392 --> 00:32:13,120
with the inner. The intertwining doctrines of, like, the permanency of

523
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,640
marriage, forgiveness and repentance.

524
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,624
And, you know, what does this look like? And you don't realize you're wrestling

525
00:32:20,672 --> 00:32:24,272
with all this, but it's all swirling around and it overwhelms

526
00:32:24,336 --> 00:32:27,808
you like waves of grief

527
00:32:27,904 --> 00:32:31,696
and then depression. If you were a primary

528
00:32:31,728 --> 00:32:35,408
victim yourself, the rates of suicidality are so high

529
00:32:35,544 --> 00:32:39,344
because you don't see a good way out. You don't want

530
00:32:39,352 --> 00:32:43,072
to get divorced. This person is abusive. There's this habit of

531
00:32:43,096 --> 00:32:46,880
just moving forward because to the extent that there were signs in the

532
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,704
past, you moved forward by minimizing them or

533
00:32:50,792 --> 00:32:54,602
by whooshing them out, you know, you, you probably didn't ask

534
00:32:54,626 --> 00:32:58,330
for help or tell anybody about any of these signs. And so

535
00:32:58,370 --> 00:33:02,042
you have to start to break that pattern and start to be willing

536
00:33:02,106 --> 00:33:05,610
to depend on other people and ask for

537
00:33:05,650 --> 00:33:09,242
help. And then you've got to consider in that caring for your

538
00:33:09,266 --> 00:33:12,890
children. And like I said, to the extent we don't understand what

539
00:33:12,930 --> 00:33:16,554
abuse is early on, we don't realize

540
00:33:16,602 --> 00:33:20,282
the harm that may have come to them, especially if

541
00:33:20,306 --> 00:33:24,086
they weren't the primary victims. Even if they

542
00:33:24,158 --> 00:33:27,846
were the primary victims or

543
00:33:27,998 --> 00:33:31,798
one of them understand, you're probably not going to understand

544
00:33:31,854 --> 00:33:35,510
at the beginning the depth of the harm

545
00:33:35,670 --> 00:33:39,190
and even the actions that

546
00:33:39,230 --> 00:33:42,710
happened and you're wrestling with. We don't want them to hate that

547
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:46,294
parent. But you also need to protect them and model

548
00:33:46,342 --> 00:33:49,810
healthy behavior. And how do you do that?

549
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,856
So that's all before you get to. If your

550
00:33:54,928 --> 00:33:58,728
spouse abused somebody outside the marriage, these

551
00:33:58,784 --> 00:34:02,440
are all the survival things that are happening before you

552
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,700
can even sometimes deal with

553
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,832
this external abuse and understanding the dynamic of that because

554
00:34:09,936 --> 00:34:13,416
you are in survival mode and you're

555
00:34:13,448 --> 00:34:16,872
responsible for your children. And then like I said, if the

556
00:34:16,896 --> 00:34:19,890
enablers are pressuring you

557
00:34:20,350 --> 00:34:23,974
during this time and are there pressure campaigns to silence

558
00:34:24,022 --> 00:34:27,542
you to minimize the behavior, you know, that was

559
00:34:27,566 --> 00:34:31,142
something I personally experienced. Is that

560
00:34:31,326 --> 00:34:35,010
silencing and manipulation and it makes

561
00:34:35,310 --> 00:34:38,934
all of this process just eek out

562
00:34:39,022 --> 00:34:42,630
so slowly because making sense of it without a

563
00:34:42,670 --> 00:34:45,910
good strong protective support system is really

564
00:34:45,950 --> 00:34:48,890
difficult. Yeah. Tell me about how

565
00:34:49,910 --> 00:34:53,662
your thoughts on the very common

566
00:34:53,726 --> 00:34:57,550
response from faith communities to

567
00:34:57,590 --> 00:35:00,850
this to say the first thing you need to do is go to marriage therapy.

568
00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:05,742
Nope. That goes back to starting from

569
00:35:05,766 --> 00:35:09,598
the foundation that the, the problem we have

570
00:35:09,654 --> 00:35:13,020
here is an abusive mindset

571
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:16,720
that results in patterns of behaviors. This is not a marriage

572
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,984
problem. This is a abuse

573
00:35:20,112 --> 00:35:23,408
problem. Going to marriage counseling

574
00:35:23,504 --> 00:35:26,576
is a remedy for

575
00:35:26,648 --> 00:35:29,300
interpersonal communication,

576
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,872
responsibility dynamics within a

577
00:35:33,896 --> 00:35:37,260
marriage wholly inapplicable to

578
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,432
how you deal with an abusive mindset. Now

579
00:35:41,576 --> 00:35:45,032
the, the non abusing spouse definitely

580
00:35:45,176 --> 00:35:48,780
should get the support of a trauma informed

581
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,952
therapist and maybe even a support group.

582
00:35:53,056 --> 00:35:56,824
I was in pretty much weekly

583
00:35:56,872 --> 00:36:00,584
therapy for five years. I was in a DV

584
00:36:00,632 --> 00:36:04,392
support group and still am. And it's been, you know, what, six,

585
00:36:04,496 --> 00:36:08,316
six years now? Yeah. And those two

586
00:36:08,388 --> 00:36:12,092
were vital for me. So a support system, helping

587
00:36:12,236 --> 00:36:15,804
that person get plugged into those kind of resources. But marriage

588
00:36:15,852 --> 00:36:19,612
counseling? Absolutely not. If the issue

589
00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:23,100
is serial adultery, if the issue

590
00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:26,716
is abuse of any kind, whether

591
00:36:26,868 --> 00:36:30,636
domestic abuse or abuse outside the marriage, Marriage

592
00:36:30,668 --> 00:36:34,452
counseling is not appropriate and not called for. I think that's a good point

593
00:36:34,476 --> 00:36:38,052
to make. I also think it can derail the whole, the process

594
00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:42,676
slows it down. I mean, if there is a small

595
00:36:42,748 --> 00:36:46,516
chance of somebody turning their life around and deciding

596
00:36:46,548 --> 00:36:49,988
to do the hard work, it's not going to start in

597
00:36:50,044 --> 00:36:53,172
couples counseling. It's going to start on an

598
00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:56,868
individual level. And they can

599
00:36:56,924 --> 00:37:00,772
do that as long as there's a message being sent that there must be

600
00:37:00,796 --> 00:37:04,138
two sides to this. And you know, and

601
00:37:04,194 --> 00:37:07,930
this idea that if a man strays

602
00:37:08,010 --> 00:37:11,514
from his marriage, if that happened, that the wife was not

603
00:37:11,602 --> 00:37:15,082
caring for him in a way that she should have. And that's a

604
00:37:15,106 --> 00:37:18,710
terrible, horrible message that we've sent to

605
00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:22,986
too many spouses for too long. Yeah, I actually have a personal

606
00:37:23,058 --> 00:37:26,630
story related to that and backing up. I'll say

607
00:37:27,250 --> 00:37:31,084
it doesn't serve the abuser well to allow them an out

608
00:37:31,252 --> 00:37:34,988
to say that this is someone else's fault versus things I've

609
00:37:35,004 --> 00:37:38,252
got to deal with in my mind. But I will say, early on in my

610
00:37:38,276 --> 00:37:40,360
marriage, in one of the

611
00:37:41,540 --> 00:37:44,920
first series of affairs that I knew about,

612
00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:49,068
there were people in our life and one

613
00:37:49,124 --> 00:37:52,556
did say, well, you know, there's two,

614
00:37:52,708 --> 00:37:55,280
there's two people in a relationship.

615
00:37:56,230 --> 00:37:59,050
And that stuck with me. And

616
00:37:59,510 --> 00:38:03,294
that was part of how this

617
00:38:03,462 --> 00:38:07,006
just kept perpetuating. And so

618
00:38:07,078 --> 00:38:10,686
finally at the end, when it was very, very clear

619
00:38:10,758 --> 00:38:14,494
this was a long standing pattern, not just the serial

620
00:38:14,542 --> 00:38:17,934
adultery, but the interpersonal

621
00:38:18,062 --> 00:38:21,904
abuse long standing pattern, a couple

622
00:38:21,952 --> 00:38:25,504
different people came to me and said, hey, because I, I said to them,

623
00:38:25,592 --> 00:38:29,180
hey, this is what you said and

624
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,976
explicitly and suggested. And that was

625
00:38:33,048 --> 00:38:36,656
really harmful to me. And they apologized.

626
00:38:36,768 --> 00:38:40,128
They apologized. And I

627
00:38:40,184 --> 00:38:43,020
cannot tell you how meaningful that was

628
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,752
because when you are dealing with someone that

629
00:38:46,776 --> 00:38:50,070
is pathologically deceitful

630
00:38:50,890 --> 00:38:54,690
and, and I say pathologically because it is, it is so

631
00:38:54,730 --> 00:38:58,562
a part of their everyday life. It's, it's a

632
00:38:58,586 --> 00:39:02,418
pathology. Yeah. Someone that's deceitful in that way

633
00:39:02,554 --> 00:39:06,322
and you're twisting into pretzels to try

634
00:39:06,346 --> 00:39:10,050
to support them and meet their needs in,

635
00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:13,786
in ways that over time become very, very unhealthy. There's

636
00:39:13,818 --> 00:39:16,762
nothing else you could do. And that, and that's something you have to learn for

637
00:39:16,786 --> 00:39:20,602
yourself that this wasn't me. There was nothing else I could

638
00:39:20,626 --> 00:39:24,202
do. This is a them problem. And that sounds kind

639
00:39:24,226 --> 00:39:26,950
of blase to say it that way, but

640
00:39:27,570 --> 00:39:31,290
continuing to remind yourself when you come out of that situation that

641
00:39:31,410 --> 00:39:34,682
there's nothing I Could have done that, could have made this any better.

642
00:39:34,866 --> 00:39:38,314
Yeah. And that isn't to say that you are a perfect

643
00:39:38,362 --> 00:39:42,170
person, is to say that somebody, one person, is responsible for their own

644
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:46,430
behavior. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can say that now,

645
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:50,302
especially being in a very healthy relationship, it is just. And. And

646
00:39:50,326 --> 00:39:53,822
I know you're in a healthy relationship. It is light years

647
00:39:54,006 --> 00:39:57,198
different. The dynamics in a healthy

648
00:39:57,374 --> 00:40:00,078
relationship, in how things are handled, how you

649
00:40:00,134 --> 00:40:03,182
communicate, how you feel

650
00:40:03,366 --> 00:40:07,112
safe all the time. Yeah, it's so

651
00:40:07,136 --> 00:40:10,600
different. One of the things I see as a problem, and you alluded to this,

652
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,312
and I want to talk about it a little bit more, is this is something

653
00:40:14,336 --> 00:40:17,464
we've seen over and over again. This is not a one time thing. So if

654
00:40:17,472 --> 00:40:20,488
someone says, I know what Amy's talking about, I'm going to say, well, I'm talking

655
00:40:20,504 --> 00:40:23,736
about, you know, 50 of these situations

656
00:40:23,928 --> 00:40:26,740
is in the Christian world, the return

657
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,540
to position

658
00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:34,594
and that being celebrated and it happening relatively

659
00:40:34,642 --> 00:40:38,110
quickly. I am concerned. And I think one of that is because

660
00:40:38,570 --> 00:40:42,146
things I've learned is for a reason for my concern

661
00:40:42,218 --> 00:40:45,150
is that there has not been a chance for that person

662
00:40:45,850 --> 00:40:49,538
to show that they are a trustworthy person. And

663
00:40:49,594 --> 00:40:53,378
oftentimes what they're being returned to is the

664
00:40:53,434 --> 00:40:56,962
thing that gives them access to something

665
00:40:57,146 --> 00:41:00,790
that was their biggest temptation

666
00:41:01,130 --> 00:41:04,882
to do the worst that they could do. It's like saying, oh,

667
00:41:04,946 --> 00:41:08,354
I'm so glad you dealt with your alcoholism. Come on back to the work in

668
00:41:08,362 --> 00:41:12,130
a bar. Yes. Tell me about your thoughts on that. Especially,

669
00:41:12,250 --> 00:41:15,906
let's say if you were in the decision making position as somebody that's

670
00:41:15,938 --> 00:41:18,818
like, oh, so and so, just finished their

671
00:41:18,954 --> 00:41:22,722
therapy. Should I bring

672
00:41:22,746 --> 00:41:26,480
them back? Is it time they went to their retreat center,

673
00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:30,156
they say they're ready. Nope. And their spouse says they're

674
00:41:30,188 --> 00:41:33,452
ready. Nope. Go

675
00:41:33,476 --> 00:41:37,228
on. Here's my opinion, and I'm

676
00:41:37,244 --> 00:41:40,828
not going to attribute this to anyone else. Someone who has

677
00:41:40,884 --> 00:41:44,680
had power and has abused that power in whatever way

678
00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:49,292
should never have any similar type of

679
00:41:49,316 --> 00:41:52,858
power like that ever. And what we know about it

680
00:41:52,914 --> 00:41:56,510
is the person who truly changes

681
00:41:57,170 --> 00:42:00,750
and repents and appreciates the harm

682
00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:05,530
that they have done to people. They

683
00:42:05,570 --> 00:42:09,290
would agree, they would want to be near it, they wouldn't want to be

684
00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:13,242
anywhere near that because they understand the

685
00:42:13,266 --> 00:42:16,714
harm that they've caused. And I'm going to throw a hypothetical

686
00:42:16,762 --> 00:42:20,374
here. Someone who has harmed

687
00:42:20,422 --> 00:42:24,022
people in some abusive way, they disappear

688
00:42:24,086 --> 00:42:26,770
into obscurity. They

689
00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:31,126
make amends to the extent that their victims

690
00:42:31,318 --> 00:42:35,050
are able or willing to interact,

691
00:42:35,470 --> 00:42:39,250
and they make amends where that person

692
00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:43,572
is satisfied. In. In some

693
00:42:43,596 --> 00:42:47,124
way. And the amends they're making are defined by the person who'd been harmed. Right.

694
00:42:47,212 --> 00:42:50,452
They're never going, well, I did all this. Well, I

695
00:42:50,476 --> 00:42:54,228
apologize. That's a sign they're not repentant, they're not changed.

696
00:42:54,404 --> 00:42:58,020
And they don't have a desire to get back into

697
00:42:58,060 --> 00:43:01,380
that position because they are completely humbled

698
00:43:01,540 --> 00:43:05,076
and grieved by the things they have done.

699
00:43:05,228 --> 00:43:08,340
And I feel like the only scenario that I could

700
00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:12,190
imagine to put them back into some

701
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:15,490
kind of power is that their victims

702
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:19,450
champion them. And they say

703
00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:23,822
this. They are such a changed

704
00:43:23,966 --> 00:43:27,358
person. And our relationship has

705
00:43:27,414 --> 00:43:31,262
been. It has reconciled. And I see them as

706
00:43:31,286 --> 00:43:34,910
a completely different person because, again, that. That's what

707
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:38,790
repentance is. It's turning the other direction. And

708
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:42,662
so it should be obvious, if it's not obvious to the people

709
00:43:42,766 --> 00:43:46,166
around us, especially to our victims, that we.

710
00:43:46,238 --> 00:43:49,190
That we or the abuser is a completely

711
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:52,950
changed person. That humility and that

712
00:43:52,990 --> 00:43:56,774
repentance, I don't believe is there because when you are so grieved

713
00:43:56,822 --> 00:44:00,406
by the harm you've caused, when you appreciate it, you

714
00:44:00,478 --> 00:44:03,814
want to make amends to your

715
00:44:03,902 --> 00:44:07,560
victims, and you. You are

716
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,224
just grieved by it. And. And when you see

717
00:44:11,392 --> 00:44:14,968
people, you often hear about this with people

718
00:44:15,024 --> 00:44:18,584
in. In prison who are completely

719
00:44:18,632 --> 00:44:22,296
grieved, and then you hear these wonderful, heartwarming stories.

720
00:44:22,408 --> 00:44:25,800
Were they in the family of the person that they

721
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,544
murdered or something? That there is this restored

722
00:44:29,592 --> 00:44:32,378
relationship that is a sign of

723
00:44:32,434 --> 00:44:36,026
repentance and. And grief over the harm that you've

724
00:44:36,058 --> 00:44:39,818
caused. But have I seen that by a person

725
00:44:39,874 --> 00:44:43,482
in the Christian world or a pastor? No, I

726
00:44:43,506 --> 00:44:47,258
haven't. No. Yeah. What about that? The argument

727
00:44:47,354 --> 00:44:51,018
about forgiveness. Aren't we called to forgive? Isn't that

728
00:44:51,154 --> 00:44:54,906
lacking forgiveness? No, I think

729
00:44:54,978 --> 00:44:58,784
there have been a lot. I mean, I agree with you. Yeah. A

730
00:44:58,792 --> 00:45:02,560
lot of warped definitions of forgiveness. And one of the most

731
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,320
profound things for me, and I talk about this over on

732
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,048
my sub stack and is

733
00:45:10,104 --> 00:45:13,824
tearing apart all of these concepts

734
00:45:13,872 --> 00:45:17,200
that have been conflated in the church and in

735
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,560
ourselves. And they are things like repentance,

736
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,538
forgiveness, accountability, relationship

737
00:45:24,634 --> 00:45:28,410
reconciliation, and trust. And we've put all those together. That

738
00:45:28,450 --> 00:45:31,310
somebody has harmed someone, they say they're sorry,

739
00:45:31,810 --> 00:45:35,434
and the relationship should go back to how it was. We should trust them in

740
00:45:35,442 --> 00:45:39,274
the exact same way we trusted them before. The sorry is the repentance,

741
00:45:39,322 --> 00:45:43,146
and now we're obligated to forgive. Realizing

742
00:45:43,178 --> 00:45:46,986
that all of those things are separate things was so

743
00:45:47,058 --> 00:45:50,518
profound to me. And forgiveness

744
00:45:50,694 --> 00:45:54,290
is really within us and

745
00:45:54,590 --> 00:45:58,086
how we can wrestle with the harm that they've

746
00:45:58,118 --> 00:46:01,510
caused and with them as a person. For

747
00:46:01,550 --> 00:46:05,270
me, my standard of whether I have

748
00:46:05,310 --> 00:46:09,078
forgiven someone and often it's a daily

749
00:46:09,174 --> 00:46:12,966
choice to forgive, especially in a situation where someone

750
00:46:13,038 --> 00:46:16,050
continues to be harmful. And that is,

751
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:19,870
do I want the best for them? Do I

752
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:23,502
want God's best for them? Would I be

753
00:46:23,526 --> 00:46:27,278
open for them coming to me and wanting

754
00:46:27,374 --> 00:46:30,690
to apologize and to make amends?

755
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:35,246
And would I be vengeful or overly

756
00:46:35,278 --> 00:46:39,070
burdensome with what I would need from them? Would I be willing to

757
00:46:39,110 --> 00:46:42,558
have these conversations with them? And also am I able to talk

758
00:46:42,614 --> 00:46:46,324
about the things that they've done and the harm that they've

759
00:46:46,372 --> 00:46:48,160
caused without

760
00:46:48,860 --> 00:46:52,468
extraordinary pain and

761
00:46:52,524 --> 00:46:55,924
anger and emotions like that I've

762
00:46:55,972 --> 00:46:59,668
processed, it could be very, very harmful, but I can talk about

763
00:46:59,724 --> 00:47:03,476
it and I'm not overcome with anger

764
00:47:03,588 --> 00:47:07,360
and I could have a conversation with them about it and

765
00:47:08,060 --> 00:47:11,752
communicate my forgiveness to them. So that's can be different for

766
00:47:11,776 --> 00:47:15,000
different people. But that's how I look at it and try to

767
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,856
evaluate have I forgiven? I can't say I'm

768
00:47:18,888 --> 00:47:22,712
perfect at it, but that's how I look at it. What would you say

769
00:47:22,736 --> 00:47:26,472
to the person that says that kind of

770
00:47:26,496 --> 00:47:29,752
conflates unforgiveness with somebody's desire for

771
00:47:29,776 --> 00:47:33,592
justice? I mean, we have a justice system now.

772
00:47:33,616 --> 00:47:37,208
I will say our American or earthly

773
00:47:37,304 --> 00:47:40,418
justice system is not perfect by any means

774
00:47:40,474 --> 00:47:43,538
whatsoever. But it's not like we don't have

775
00:47:43,674 --> 00:47:47,378
consequences for actions, for murder, for rape.

776
00:47:47,554 --> 00:47:51,186
And we're not saying, well, if that person apologizes and their, their victim

777
00:47:51,218 --> 00:47:54,530
forgives them, they shouldn't go to jail. No, there are consequences.

778
00:47:54,610 --> 00:47:58,258
Accountability is separate from their

779
00:47:58,314 --> 00:48:02,114
repentance or our forgiveness. And that's, that is replete in

780
00:48:02,122 --> 00:48:05,890
the Bible. There's consequences for sin. And God

781
00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:09,686
had different consequences for people based on their actions.

782
00:48:09,798 --> 00:48:13,286
Even if they were sorry and repented, there were still

783
00:48:13,358 --> 00:48:16,742
natural consequences for King David who when he was

784
00:48:16,766 --> 00:48:20,022
confronted by Nathan and you know,

785
00:48:20,206 --> 00:48:23,970
yes, I say we shouldn't believe people's words, but

786
00:48:24,510 --> 00:48:28,150
David, he played that out in his

787
00:48:28,190 --> 00:48:31,510
life. Again, not a perfect person, but he still had

788
00:48:31,550 --> 00:48:35,340
consequences. His child died. Yep. And then

789
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:39,116
his other children child rebelled against

790
00:48:39,188 --> 00:48:42,860
him and there was harm within his family that

791
00:48:42,980 --> 00:48:46,828
was expected to happen. That were consequences for his actions.

792
00:48:46,924 --> 00:48:50,188
Shannon Martin says, and she'll, she'll say this,

793
00:48:50,244 --> 00:48:53,660
repeat, repeat it with me, say it with me. That

794
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:56,520
forgiveness doesn't equal access.

795
00:48:57,140 --> 00:49:00,380
Yes. And that goes to that trust issue. Trust in

796
00:49:00,420 --> 00:49:03,180
relationship. Again, separate things.

797
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,376
I can forgive people, but

798
00:49:07,528 --> 00:49:10,352
I'm not going to trust them because they're not

799
00:49:10,536 --> 00:49:13,680
trustworthy, and I'm not going to have

800
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,420
relationship with them because they're not a safe person.

801
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,760
And you can argue whether or not that relates to whether they've repented

802
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,360
or not, but they've certainly not shown themselves to be

803
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,136
trustworthy or shown themselves not to continue to be harmful

804
00:49:29,168 --> 00:49:32,946
to people. And, you know, that's, you know, that's

805
00:49:32,978 --> 00:49:36,402
not a person that I'm going to have. You know, they could be in my

806
00:49:36,426 --> 00:49:39,430
periphery. And I think the longer we heal,

807
00:49:39,930 --> 00:49:43,698
we realize that we are going to encounter unsafe people.

808
00:49:43,834 --> 00:49:47,426
And it's, it's, it's part of healing, actually, to be able to hold that tension

809
00:49:47,458 --> 00:49:51,074
and that nuance that not everybody is completely safe and they're

810
00:49:51,122 --> 00:49:54,802
still maybe in your life, but it. They're certainly not in

811
00:49:54,826 --> 00:49:58,674
my inner circle or in my secondary circle or

812
00:49:58,762 --> 00:50:02,482
pretty much in my third circle. Yeah. I just thought of a

813
00:50:02,506 --> 00:50:06,274
situation that I feel like is applicable to this, something that I experienced in the

814
00:50:06,282 --> 00:50:10,082
church that I attended. And I'd love for you to kind of

815
00:50:10,106 --> 00:50:13,666
sit in the seat of the decision makers and how to handle

816
00:50:13,698 --> 00:50:17,266
this. I went to a church where the youth pastor's

817
00:50:17,298 --> 00:50:20,946
wife was found to have been sending,

818
00:50:21,138 --> 00:50:24,676
I think, some messages of a sexual nature with a

819
00:50:24,818 --> 00:50:28,272
somebody in the youth group underage. It

820
00:50:28,296 --> 00:50:32,112
was turned over to the police. It's handled well in that

821
00:50:32,136 --> 00:50:35,872
regard. However, if you are like an elder in that church and

822
00:50:35,896 --> 00:50:39,712
trying to figure out how to handle this, how do you handle the

823
00:50:39,736 --> 00:50:43,552
thing? You're like, well, what if this is going to cost the spouse, the

824
00:50:43,576 --> 00:50:47,328
innocent spouse that didn't do anything by

825
00:50:47,384 --> 00:50:50,352
trying to create safety? How do I handle that,

826
00:50:50,376 --> 00:50:54,136
Melissa, when I'm afraid that by keeping

827
00:50:54,168 --> 00:50:56,900
somebody safe will also harm, cost

828
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,480
that innocent spouse. The boundaries

829
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,776
on the ministry that they're allowed to do. And I think I see that happening

830
00:51:04,808 --> 00:51:08,552
in the whole, you know, Christian world where we're like, but if

831
00:51:08,576 --> 00:51:12,184
I don't let this one person back on the stage, the person they're

832
00:51:12,232 --> 00:51:15,960
married to is going to be harmed because

833
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,586
they're not gonna be able to pay their bills. There's two things in tension

834
00:51:19,618 --> 00:51:21,870
there. Right. There's the fact that

835
00:51:22,970 --> 00:51:26,802
we have to have standards for how to

836
00:51:26,906 --> 00:51:29,750
keep safe, keep people safe, safeguarding.

837
00:51:30,170 --> 00:51:33,682
And that should exist whether or not someone is married

838
00:51:33,826 --> 00:51:37,602
to someone. And it's funny because there is so

839
00:51:37,626 --> 00:51:40,882
much of this crossover in the church or in Christian organizations

840
00:51:40,946 --> 00:51:44,484
between the person and their spouse.

841
00:51:44,602 --> 00:51:48,432
Yeah. That arguably maybe should not exist. I

842
00:51:48,456 --> 00:51:51,856
think Beth Allison Barr's book Becoming the Pastor's

843
00:51:51,888 --> 00:51:55,392
Wife is going to be A really interesting read in that

844
00:51:55,416 --> 00:51:59,168
regard because we have these expectations of what a pastor's wife, whether it's

845
00:51:59,184 --> 00:52:02,960
a senior pastor or youth pastor, what they should do that we probably should

846
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,624
not have. Yeah. What if the expectation is that their house is safe? What if

847
00:52:06,632 --> 00:52:09,984
the expectation. They're trying not to put the expectation on the person that isn't on

848
00:52:09,992 --> 00:52:13,578
the payroll, but they

849
00:52:13,634 --> 00:52:17,082
are hiring that person because they have an expectation that

850
00:52:17,106 --> 00:52:20,922
the household that they live in is a safe place for

851
00:52:20,946 --> 00:52:24,682
them to do ministry and they find out that maybe that

852
00:52:24,706 --> 00:52:28,310
household isn't a safe place for them to, you know, have.

853
00:52:28,930 --> 00:52:32,090
Well, that. That goes back to the standards of if that is part of the

854
00:52:32,130 --> 00:52:35,850
job requirements. Yeah. That person probably can no longer meet

855
00:52:35,890 --> 00:52:39,322
them. It is terrible that there are impacts

856
00:52:39,466 --> 00:52:42,298
to the non harmful

857
00:52:42,474 --> 00:52:46,250
spouse. And that's true. There were

858
00:52:46,290 --> 00:52:50,138
lots in my situation. But

859
00:52:50,274 --> 00:52:53,530
the church's responsibility is to the

860
00:52:53,570 --> 00:52:57,370
congregation and to the youth, especially to young people and to

861
00:52:57,410 --> 00:53:00,842
the minors. And they can support

862
00:53:00,946 --> 00:53:04,408
the non offending spouse in other ways in terms

863
00:53:04,464 --> 00:53:08,184
of helping them consider a different career,

864
00:53:08,312 --> 00:53:12,008
a different job. They can transition them out

865
00:53:12,064 --> 00:53:15,620
with severance. They can help them.

866
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,672
They especially should, as we talked about earlier, help them understand the

867
00:53:19,696 --> 00:53:23,320
dynamics of abuse and what it is they're in when they

868
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,048
are married to an offending spouse. Because

869
00:53:27,184 --> 00:53:30,882
you know that the churches should be the most educated on

870
00:53:30,906 --> 00:53:34,190
this topic so that we can come alongside people

871
00:53:34,490 --> 00:53:38,322
who may not understand and who are in a morass of it

872
00:53:38,506 --> 00:53:42,050
either, you know, during the abuse itself

873
00:53:42,130 --> 00:53:45,714
or. Or afterwards still. Yeah.

874
00:53:45,762 --> 00:53:49,346
And in our church situation, I feel like they

875
00:53:49,418 --> 00:53:53,026
told us what happened in a letter and they read it from the

876
00:53:53,098 --> 00:53:56,850
stage and I don't know that it was ever addressed ever again. And

877
00:53:56,890 --> 00:54:00,556
the spouse that had the offending spouse wasn't allowed to be on campus

878
00:54:00,668 --> 00:54:04,332
for a certain period of time. But then after that time was up, they

879
00:54:04,356 --> 00:54:08,028
just sort of quietly brought her back in. It also makes you

880
00:54:08,084 --> 00:54:11,740
wonder. There's definitely a gender dynamic in abuse

881
00:54:11,820 --> 00:54:15,356
that we cannot ignore in both directions depending on what's

882
00:54:15,388 --> 00:54:18,700
happening. Yeah. And when we look at that, we have to

883
00:54:18,740 --> 00:54:22,460
understand are different allowances or

884
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:26,096
different judgments being made based

885
00:54:26,168 --> 00:54:29,552
on the offender's gender or the victim's

886
00:54:29,616 --> 00:54:33,440
gender or because it's same sex abuse that people think

887
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,784
is somehow different than opposite gender

888
00:54:36,832 --> 00:54:40,080
abuse. I guess I asked that question because I say, if this had

889
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,952
been a male youth leader who had done this to

890
00:54:43,976 --> 00:54:47,260
a young woman, would they have let him come back?

891
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:51,214
I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Some. Some churches absolutely would have.

892
00:54:51,392 --> 00:54:55,106
Yeah. It was Not a shining moment. I think a lot of times churches

893
00:54:55,138 --> 00:54:58,450
just want to just get over it real fast and are

894
00:54:58,490 --> 00:55:01,986
really more upset about media covering

895
00:55:02,018 --> 00:55:05,858
it and see that as an attack on them more than they see the

896
00:55:05,914 --> 00:55:09,458
issue, the abuse that's happened as the

897
00:55:09,514 --> 00:55:13,362
real problem. That really grieves me that so

898
00:55:13,386 --> 00:55:17,126
many times they're detracting from the real problem by saying, oh

899
00:55:17,158 --> 00:55:20,470
look at that, it's the Tennessee. And it's that they're just always out to say

900
00:55:20,510 --> 00:55:24,262
bad things about us. Right. And it's a type of silencing. It may not be

901
00:55:24,286 --> 00:55:27,926
the overt silencing that happens with non disclosure

902
00:55:27,958 --> 00:55:31,718
agreements or them telling their church, don't talk about

903
00:55:31,774 --> 00:55:35,450
this. But it's. If we're not being transparent,

904
00:55:35,950 --> 00:55:39,222
there is kind of a layer of silencing. We're not giving the

905
00:55:39,246 --> 00:55:42,918
information. And so then people don't even know what questions to ask.

906
00:55:43,054 --> 00:55:46,358
People feel like they shouldn't talk about it. And so

907
00:55:46,414 --> 00:55:49,750
being transparent about

908
00:55:49,870 --> 00:55:53,510
situations of abuse and what is

909
00:55:53,550 --> 00:55:56,758
known, what is alleged. Obviously every case

910
00:55:56,894 --> 00:56:00,614
is unique, especially if there's victims

911
00:56:00,662 --> 00:56:04,330
that don't want to be identified

912
00:56:04,830 --> 00:56:08,406
or known. You have to take that into

913
00:56:08,478 --> 00:56:11,010
consideration. But more information

914
00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:15,534
with those caveats is better than less information.

915
00:56:15,702 --> 00:56:19,470
Yeah. And a healthy organization isn't going

916
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:23,022
to consider you a troublemaker for asking questions. No. I

917
00:56:23,046 --> 00:56:26,814
mean the stakes are really high in these sorts of situations and the

918
00:56:26,822 --> 00:56:30,638
kind of access people have to people

919
00:56:30,694 --> 00:56:34,238
with less power, people who are vulnerable, that's a red flag when they're like you're

920
00:56:34,254 --> 00:56:38,102
talking about it is a problem. Right, Right. Yeah. You

921
00:56:38,126 --> 00:56:41,526
are not the problem if you're. Asking question and that's

922
00:56:41,558 --> 00:56:45,286
why asking the questions ahead of time and

923
00:56:45,358 --> 00:56:49,078
understanding safeguarding policies and having those

924
00:56:49,134 --> 00:56:52,090
frank conversations before there's a situation

925
00:56:52,590 --> 00:56:56,262
where something has happened and then you're dealing with it at that point, then you

926
00:56:56,286 --> 00:56:59,910
can understand are they following even the policies that

927
00:56:59,950 --> 00:57:03,750
they have, you know, put out there? You know, are they willing to talk

928
00:57:03,790 --> 00:57:07,168
about it and what should I expect? But we don't know what to ask

929
00:57:07,224 --> 00:57:10,864
sometimes if we've never gone through a situation like this. So it's not,

930
00:57:11,032 --> 00:57:14,540
there's no shame if you don't know the questions to ask. And I'd also say

931
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,336
every organization is going to say of course we're

932
00:57:18,368 --> 00:57:22,176
safe. Thanks for asking, Amy. We do ministry

933
00:57:22,208 --> 00:57:25,776
safe, we do background checks, we're good. Yeah.

934
00:57:25,888 --> 00:57:29,440
And it's going to take probably a little deeper conversation, a little more

935
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,312
awkward conversation if you really care to know the nitty gritty of

936
00:57:33,336 --> 00:57:37,072
how things are handled and you might feel like you're a

937
00:57:37,096 --> 00:57:40,800
problem. I feel like I'm a problem. Sometimes I just

938
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,464
have to ask it one more way because I have seen

939
00:57:44,552 --> 00:57:48,144
people skirt a question because I use the wrong

940
00:57:48,192 --> 00:57:51,952
term about NDAs where I say, now I'm going to ask and say, do

941
00:57:51,976 --> 00:57:55,680
you have any documents or any agreements you require

942
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,218
anybody to agree to in order to work

943
00:57:59,274 --> 00:58:02,390
there, or you feel like you got to be a lawyer

944
00:58:02,890 --> 00:58:06,690
that keeps them from. From speaking freely about

945
00:58:06,730 --> 00:58:09,922
their experience. Right. Like, did I say that exactly right.

946
00:58:10,106 --> 00:58:13,826
Confidentiality clauses. Because I've asked about, like,

947
00:58:13,898 --> 00:58:17,698
do you do NDAs? And I pastors have said, no, we don't.

948
00:58:17,794 --> 00:58:20,834
And then I find out, oh, they do a confidentiality

949
00:58:20,882 --> 00:58:24,648
agreement. It's just wordsmithing. So and so

950
00:58:24,704 --> 00:58:28,248
I'm not saying everybody does that purposefully to skirt it. I'm just

951
00:58:28,304 --> 00:58:32,072
saying people that want their place to be safe don't know how to make

952
00:58:32,096 --> 00:58:35,688
them safe. And they think they are because they did what their insurance company

953
00:58:35,744 --> 00:58:39,112
required to have insurance. Well, and I would say too,

954
00:58:39,216 --> 00:58:42,664
especially in cases of sexual abuse, by the time they're

955
00:58:42,712 --> 00:58:46,184
actually arrested or they have

956
00:58:46,272 --> 00:58:49,960
something that would be on their record for a background check, often they have

957
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,720
a myriad of victims or they're not caught for a

958
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,560
long time. So we do hear about cases in churches

959
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,464
where they didn't check and this person was a known or registered

960
00:59:01,512 --> 00:59:05,304
sex offender. Obviously that's some cases. There's a ton

961
00:59:05,352 --> 00:59:08,980
of cases where this is the first

962
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,912
caught offense, whether that's, you know,

963
00:59:14,016 --> 00:59:17,580
power abuse, sexual abuse, spiritual abuse.

964
00:59:18,010 --> 00:59:21,506
So yes, you have the policies, have safeguarding

965
00:59:21,538 --> 00:59:25,266
policies, have background checks, all of these things. But you also

966
00:59:25,338 --> 00:59:28,370
need to have a full understanding of abuse

967
00:59:28,530 --> 00:59:32,098
because there's going to be abusive people,

968
00:59:32,234 --> 00:59:35,350
I guarantee in almost every church's timeline

969
00:59:35,770 --> 00:59:39,346
that have never been arrested and would, you know, pass a background check with flying

970
00:59:39,378 --> 00:59:43,074
colors. And half of the people they knew would say, they're wonderful,

971
00:59:43,122 --> 00:59:46,832
amazing people. Yeah, yeah. As you were saying that, I was

972
00:59:46,856 --> 00:59:50,256
also thinking about often when there's abuse that happens

973
00:59:50,368 --> 00:59:54,192
inside of that is impacts somebody who

974
00:59:54,216 --> 00:59:57,616
is a member of a church, whether they are a leader or not,

975
00:59:57,768 --> 01:00:01,360
whether on payroll or a volunteer or they're just an attender.

976
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,216
The, the statement you hear from the church, if you hear anything, is,

977
01:00:05,368 --> 01:00:09,072
don't worry folks, it wasn't anybody in our church. What

978
01:00:09,096 --> 01:00:12,688
we heard about was outside of the church. And I would

979
01:00:12,744 --> 01:00:15,796
urge people when they hear that is to say, you just cannot prove a n

980
01:00:15,848 --> 01:00:19,660
negative. And just because the thing

981
01:00:19,700 --> 01:00:23,148
they heard about was outside of the church may not

982
01:00:23,204 --> 01:00:27,004
mean you should not assume that person never harmed

983
01:00:27,052 --> 01:00:30,652
anybody inside of the church. You have some work to

984
01:00:30,676 --> 01:00:34,332
do, possibly to make sure you're doing your best to care for the people in

985
01:00:34,356 --> 01:00:37,868
your church well. And the first thing we should feel is

986
01:00:38,004 --> 01:00:41,426
incredible grief for whoever that was. Right.

987
01:00:41,548 --> 01:00:45,078
Whoever was affected that way, it doesn't matter if they went to our church. Like

988
01:00:45,134 --> 01:00:48,310
grieving with those who grieve and have been harmed

989
01:00:48,470 --> 01:00:52,262
and being responsible in some way for

990
01:00:52,286 --> 01:00:56,102
that person who did that harm. But also, you're right. Again, this goes back

991
01:00:56,126 --> 01:00:59,686
to. Because abuse is a mindset. People

992
01:00:59,838 --> 01:01:03,238
were impacted by that person.

993
01:01:03,374 --> 01:01:07,158
Even if the primary victim that we currently know

994
01:01:07,214 --> 01:01:10,658
about is outside the church.

995
01:01:10,834 --> 01:01:14,450
So people were groomed to believe that person. They were

996
01:01:14,490 --> 01:01:18,226
deceived by that person. The likelihood that they may also

997
01:01:18,298 --> 01:01:21,666
have victims within the church is entirely

998
01:01:21,778 --> 01:01:25,426
possible. There's obviously secondary impacts within

999
01:01:25,498 --> 01:01:28,750
their family and friends and, and things like that.

1000
01:01:29,450 --> 01:01:33,266
Where would you point people to that say, okay, I want to handle this well.

1001
01:01:33,338 --> 01:01:37,002
Where can they learn? Who can they learn from? Right. Well, I

1002
01:01:37,026 --> 01:01:40,458
mean, if they want to handle it well, they

1003
01:01:40,514 --> 01:01:44,122
should learn about abuse and put into place policies.

1004
01:01:44,186 --> 01:01:47,610
There are a number of different organizations that can do

1005
01:01:47,650 --> 01:01:51,146
that. Grace, or Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian

1006
01:01:51,178 --> 01:01:54,858
Environment, has a safeguarding program that can come in and

1007
01:01:54,914 --> 01:01:58,506
assist with that. Again, full disclosure. I assist with

1008
01:01:58,578 --> 01:02:01,866
investigations that Grace does. Independent

1009
01:02:01,898 --> 01:02:04,990
investigations. There's resources.

1010
01:02:05,570 --> 01:02:09,338
Dr. Diane Langberg is also a great resource on

1011
01:02:09,394 --> 01:02:12,378
understanding abuse. The Caring well

1012
01:02:12,514 --> 01:02:16,026
conference and materials are online from the Southern

1013
01:02:16,058 --> 01:02:19,110
Baptist Convention. I think the key is

1014
01:02:19,570 --> 01:02:23,178
becoming educated yourself and

1015
01:02:23,234 --> 01:02:27,082
looking at different resources that can really give

1016
01:02:27,106 --> 01:02:30,830
you a wide understanding of all the different types of abuse.

1017
01:02:31,290 --> 01:02:34,802
Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for stopping by the

1018
01:02:34,826 --> 01:02:38,658
podcast, Melissa. Thanks. Always good to talk. I can't

1019
01:02:38,674 --> 01:02:41,922
wait to have you back. I already have plans for our next conversation. I think

1020
01:02:41,946 --> 01:02:43,874
it has to do with the talk you're going to give soon, but I'm going

1021
01:02:43,882 --> 01:02:46,962
to let you give your talk soon first and then I will talk a little

1022
01:02:46,986 --> 01:02:50,674
bit more, flesh it out a little more on the podcast

1023
01:02:50,802 --> 01:02:54,050
in a couple months. So it's great talking to you. You

1024
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:57,834
too. Thanks so much for listening. I know some of the things we mentioned in

1025
01:02:57,842 --> 01:03:01,594
this conversation are things you've never before considered. I'm going to share some

1026
01:03:01,602 --> 01:03:04,282
links in the show notes to give you a place to learn more about how

1027
01:03:04,306 --> 01:03:07,850
to be a good friend and effective ministry leader to those in your

1028
01:03:07,890 --> 01:03:11,322
community. If you want to connect with me, you can find me on threads as

1029
01:03:11,346 --> 01:03:14,970
Amy Henning Fritz or Amy Fritz on Bluesky. I'M also

1030
01:03:15,010 --> 01:03:18,842
untangled faith on Instagram. If you'd prefer email, send me A note to

1031
01:03:18,866 --> 01:03:21,830
amyntangledfaithpodcast.com

1032
01:03:22,300 --> 01:03:24,300
thanks everybody. I'll see you next week.